--- Log for 22.11.117 Server: orwell.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot Version: Dancer V4.16 Started: 1 month and 22 days ago 00.12.19 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00.26.19 Quit ender` (Quit: I'm a complex person. I have a real and an imaginary part.) 00.30.48 Quit dandels (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 00.44.55 Quit JdGordon (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01.08.35 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 01.15.40 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@ip-86-49-24-93.net.upcbroadband.cz) 01.18.11 # <__builtin> ooh, sgt-net is 48 bytes under the size limit on the c200v2 01.28.10 Join mendelmunkis [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.29.47 # <__builtin> mendelmunkis: did you ever get the pacbox thing working? 01.30.04 # Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision c1dc957, 273 builds, 11 clients. 01.30.47 # I've been busy so i haven't done much work on it but it is in progress 01.32.03 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01.33.51 Quit mendelmunkis (Remote host closed the connection) 01.34.10 Join mendelmunkis [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.36.45 Quit mendelmunkis (Remote host closed the connection) 01.37.08 Join mendelmunkis [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.39.07 # Build Server message: 3Build round completed after 543 seconds. 01.39.09 # Build Server message: 3Revision c1dc957 result: 264 errors 0 warnings 01.40.10 Join dvorak [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.40.17 Quit ruskie (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 01.42.25 Quit mendelmunkis (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01.43.55 Quit dvorak (Remote host closed the connection) 01.44.07 Join dvorak [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.44.09 Nick dvorak is now known as mendelmunkis (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.46.10 Join dvorak [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.46.19 Quit mendelmunkis (Remote host closed the connection) 01.49.55 Quit smoke_f2 (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 01.50.07 Join ruskie [0] (~ruskie@sourcemage/mage/ruskie) 01.50.21 Nick dvorak is now known as mendelmunkis (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.53.36 # <__builtin> ugh 01.54.33 # Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 75d2e1f, 273 builds, 11 clients. 01.57.07 Join dvorak [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 01.59.53 Quit mendelmunkis (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 02.00.22 Quit dvorak (Client Quit) 02.00.39 Join mendelmunkis [0] (~Moshe@ool-d18c2cd8.dyn.optonline.net) 02.10.47 # Build Server message: 3Build round completed after 975 seconds. 02.10.49 # Build Server message: 3Revision 75d2e1f result: All green 02.11.57 Quit mendelmunkis (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02.15.58 Join Kempster [0] (1890704b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.144.112.75) 02.38.39 Quit MrZeus (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 02.48.10 Quit quaz0r (Quit: WeeChat 2.0-dev) 03.08.36 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 03.47.23 # <__builtin> hmm, should I make mouse mode user-configurable? 03.56.25 # <__builtin> ugh, too big for the c200v2 05.08.38 *** No seen item changed, no save performed. 06.07.21 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06.07.48 Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) 06.09.29 Quit Kempster (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06.10.01 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@d192-24-173-177.try.wideopenwest.com) 06.17.23 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 06.17.51 Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) 06.59.31 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07.00.01 Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) 07.08.09 Quit dys (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 07.08.39 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 07.27.22 Join PimpiN8 [0] (~textual@2a02:a454:38ea:1:d8ce:80f3:c39f:9055) 08.06.17 Quit _meg (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 08.07.04 Join _meg [0] (~notsure@211.25.203.45) 08.19.51 Join ender` [0] (krneki@foo.eternallybored.org) 08.44.49 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@89-79-40-110.dynamic.chello.pl) 08.47.54 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 08.48.05 # Is receiving sound in emulated ATJ platform (qemu) eligible for sending "Ladies and gentlemen we have a sound..." mail? :-) 09.00.22 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~lemonboy@irssi/staff/TheLemonMan) 09.03.54 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 09.08.43 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 09.19.55 # wodz: you can send an emulated mail ;) 09.22.58 # that means I need to write appropriate model for mail device :P 09.24.34 # did yo try it on device yet? 09.24.51 # pamaury: no. 09.26.28 # I have resumed my work on Fiio X1 by the way. Unsurprisingly, it works much better now that I fixed the horrible hwstub bug (https://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=commit;h=df0edba) 09.26.50 # pamaury: But I have 'test audio' firmware to test lowlevel stuff and it works in emulator and device 09.28.56 # cool 09.29.59 # gtg 09.30.03 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) 09.40.32 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 10.08.04 Quit Moarc (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10.10.04 Join Moarc [0] (~chujko@a105.net128.okay.pl) 10.26.53 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@iwl138.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) 10.58.43 Quit paulk-gagarine (Quit: Leaving) 11.00.07 Join paulk-gagarine [0] (~paulk-gag@gagarine.paulk.fr) 11.06.41 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@ip-86-49-24-93.net.upcbroadband.cz) 11.08.46 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 11.20.48 Quit deevious (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11.38.11 Join deevious [0] (~Thunderbi@193.226.142.214) 11.45.56 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 11.53.01 Join gamera [0] (~Gamera@unaffiliated/diaspora) 11.53.26 # out of the existing players which ones have the better sound quality, and can record 11.54.11 # have fun finding something from the last 10 years 11.54.53 # but really what do you need to record 11.55.43 # I'm still sticking with my h300 11.55.53 # and I have a second h300 too that I should put back together 11.56.45 # it's been modded with a solid state msata drive through some adapters, but recording is an ability I want to have. for example recording a dj set 11.57.09 # recording a band set, recording someone's amiga 500 or whatever that's plugged into a mixer at any party 11.57.16 Quit _meg (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 11.58.18 # or just recording my own stuff, with a nintendo ds 11.58.33 # messing around with the music software, there's heaps of it 12.01.27 Join _meg [0] (~notsure@211.25.203.45) 12.02.17 # it's always useful to be able to record straight to mp3 or straight to wav 12.02.21 # on a huge drive 12.02.39 # the clip and ipod classic should be able to record 12.02.43 # but only mono 12.03.19 # ok 12.03.25 # so just the one I already have then 12.03.43 # but iirc recording isn't implemented on ipod 12.06.30 # ok then what you're saying is a little bit redundant 12.06.42 # is there no other device 12.09.16 # You keep asking the same question, what's wrong with your current device? 12.11.29 # if you want quality just buy a dedicated recorder 12.14.48 # the main thing is that there's a very small noise floor 12.15.01 # if you pay close attention you can notice it 12.15.10 Quit Galois (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12.15.22 # there's the slightest hiss and I don't think it can be modified out of this thing 12.15.54 # I use an amp with some hd25 cans and the line out, and it's much less than the headphones out, but it's still barely there 12.19.18 # the amp is actually good. it has bigger caps and gives more of a punch. it makes 70ohm headphones sound great, I don't think the amps in small devices are quite good enough 12.19.49 # I think the cans have to be very low impedance for small devices to sound good with no help 12.20.07 # it's actually the opposite 12.20.25 # low impedance headphones are harder to drive than higher impedance headphones 12.20.57 # because they require more current and lower output impedance to sound right 12.22.06 # high(ish) output impedance devices with low impedance headphones will change the frequency response 12.24.08 # what 12.24.19 # 32ohm headphones are harder to drive than 600ohm headphones 12.24.44 # is that what you're saying, or are you arguing some semantics in how I phrased the previous thing 12.27.02 # gamera: read this: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114967.0.html 12.27.51 # er 12.27.53 # wrong thread 12.27.55 # sorry 12.28.21 # https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114912.msg947456.html#msg947456 12.28.46 # that's saying that higher impedance headphones won't go as loud 12.28.49 # plugged into the same source 12.29.12 # that's part of the reason I bother boosting these hd25's a bit 12.29.19 # please keep reading 12.29.35 # "Loudness is determined by sensitivity, not impedance" 12.30.02 # and this: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,114912.msg947587.html#msg947587 12.30.04 # we are talking about headphones that are made by manufacturers 12.30.25 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12.30.30 # I'm not connecting 10" drivers to my ears at 8ohm and comparing them to various sennheisers 12.30.52 # I thikn what you are doing is arguing pure semantics and ignoring the way most headphones are made 12.31.04 # sigh 12.31.51 # with equal sensitivity, higher impedance headphones are easier to drive 12.32.00 # they aren't equal sensitivity though 12.33.17 # it's easy to find IEMs and headphones with equal sensitivity but different impedance; the higher impedance headphones are easier to drive 12.33.48 # e.g. 106 dB/mW sensitivity (quite common) and 16 ohms vs. 50 ohms 12.34.18 # ok I've only compared things like sennheisers 12.34.20 # 70 ohms is a pretty decent value 12.34.34 # like normal manufactured things that you can buy in many places 12.34.51 # I'm talking about "normal manufactured things" 12.35.10 # I'm talking about regular hardware 12.35.33 # the amp in my phone is pretty terrible 12.35.42 # it clips much sooner than the iriver will 12.35.57 # it's not a cheap phone either. 12.36.02 # lots of smartphones are mediocre 12.36.16 # and some are very good 12.36.25 # only some 12.36.45 # the ones that have that as their selling point 12.37.02 # not just those 12.37.14 # iPhones are very good, and it's not really a selling point 12.37.26 # that's kind of why they ever existed 12.37.37 # a combination of an ipod and a phone 12.37.56 # I mean they're not putting forward some special audiophile DAC or whatever 12.38.17 # do you have different players yourself 12.38.22 # it's just decent 16 bit audio with a low impedance amp 12.38.26 # yes 12.38.31 # which ones? 12.38.43 # I have an iPod Classic, an iPod Mini, a Clip+ and an iPhone 12.39.14 # the iPod Mini's internal amp has some issues 12.39.46 # some slight bass rolloff but it's not a practical concern for me 12.39.54 # I dont' like i-anything enough to buy one 12.40.06 # (i.e. I can use powered headphones with it, which alleviates the problem) 12.41.47 # the Clip+ is a good example of good hardware with near zero output impedance 12.42.03 Quit PimpiN8 (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 12.42.09 # the iPod Classic has higher output impedance (5 ohms) but also higher voltage 12.42.24 # it can drive 70 ohm headphones without problems 12.46.07 Join PimpiN8 [0] (~textual@2a02:a454:38ea:1:d8ce:80f3:c39f:9055) 12.50.16 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 12.53.47 # so can this iriver but I find it sounds better with the amp 12.53.57 # plus the volume is on a pot 12.54.06 # saves wrecking the buttons 12.54.18 # makes it a shitload easier to just turn up/down/off 12.54.29 # plus it's a DAC 12.54.42 # plugs into a phone, which actually isn't very good, or a computer, which is very good 12.55.51 Quit PimpiN8 (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 13.08.49 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 13.23.31 Quit atsampson (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 13.23.50 Join atsampson [0] (~ats@cartman.offog.org) 13.31.30 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@ip-86-49-24-93.net.upcbroadband.cz) 13.44.34 Quit Moarc (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13.46.22 Join Moarc [0] (~chujko@a105.net128.okay.pl) 14.11.44 Join Galois [0] (djao@efnet-math.org) 14.27.58 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 14.48.30 Join amayer [0] (~amayer@107-1-97-172-ip-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) 15.08.53 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 15.18.24 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~lemonboy@irssi/staff/TheLemonMan) 15.26.13 # yeah I notice the bass output on my ipod classic is really weak when I first power it on but it gets stronger after a few minutes 15.28.21 # my headphones are rated for 36 ohms 15.31.27 # 36 ohms is high enough for the Classic, you shouldn't be hearing frequency response changes 15.32.11 # maybe it's just due to stuff being cold, it's close to or below freezing outside 15.34.22 # not sure if it's due to crossover frequency for the bass boost or due to the actual boost level being different but it never seems to sound as good as my laptop 15.34.54 # both are set for 9dB, laptop is set at 50Hz and the ipod is set at the lowest bass cutoff 15.36.41 Quit wodz (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15.38.46 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@ip-86-49-24-93.net.upcbroadband.cz) 15.42.10 # <_Bilgus> copper does change resistance with temperature so your 36 ohms @20 deg C is probably 33 ohms at 0 degrees C 15.43.40 # <_Bilgus> as far as electronics being cold they usually work better cold but I guess there could be components that are negatively affected within the audio path 15.50.36 Join PimpiN8 [0] (~textual@2a02:a454:38ea:1:d8ce:80f3:c39f:9055) 16.10.31 Quit deevious (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16.37.34 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") 16.44.49 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 16.49.39 Join quaz0r [0] (~quaz@c-24-18-93-195.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) 16.50.43 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@d192-24-173-177.try.wideopenwest.com) 16.54.56 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17.02.56 # yeah and make sure when you're out in deep space at three kelvin, when you go back to your home on the sun, you'll see a change there 17.03.16 # definitely look out for that 17.08.55 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 17.20.59 # <_Bilgus> nah you don't need variances as high as that to get a noticeable change the temp coefficient of copper is like .004041 @ 20C so little back of the envelope calculation 36*(1+.004041*(0-20)) = 33.09 ohms 17.22.06 # <_Bilgus> but that assumes they are using pure copper I'd guess there was some nickel in there and a few other metals alloyed with it so it might be slightly higher or lower 17.23.52 Quit petur (Quit: Connection reset by beer) 17.25.57 Quit Jinx (Quit: reboot') 17.27.10 # <_Bilgus> that is at dc though In reality it would be all about reactance not resistance but you get the idea 17.30.43 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 17.31.57 Quit PimpiN8 (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 17.37.05 # yes it's why I need to use giant cables in my track car 17.37.05 Join PimpiN8 [0] (~textual@2a02:a454:38ea:1:d8ce:80f3:c39f:9055) 17.37.52 # 2 or 4 gauge cables for the rear battery, 8 gauge from the alternator, and some other huge ones around the place 17.38.30 # every rise in temp, and 20 degrees isn't a large rise in temperature, and it's instantly rated to carry less current 17.38.41 # cos current heats it, and it's already hot. 17.39.15 # but I haven't noticed much with my cans, maybe I turn the dial another degree, it's tough to say 17.39.52 # the rest of the player gets hot with it 17.40.10 # <_Bilgus> I surely wouldn't notice it but the frequency response might be noticeable IDK 17.48.04 Join deevious [0] (~Thunderbi@193.226.142.214) 17.50.51 # no I don't think I'd ever notice it 17.51.24 # I assume I wouldn't 18.14.21 Join alexweissman [0] (~alexweiss@pool-72-83-250-128.washdc.fios.verizon.net) 18.17.01 Quit PimpiN8 (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 18.22.07 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving) 18.24.35 Quit krabador (Remote host closed the connection) 19.08.58 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 19.15.28 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 19.18.08 Join lebellium [0] (~hexchat@89-93-177-206.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr) 19.22.37 Join dandels [0] (~dandels@unaffiliated/dandels) 19.32.12 Join unclenorton [0] (5abfc5ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.90.191.197.173) 19.32.32 # why does "BtnInput = rb.get_action(rb.contexts.CONTEXT_STD, rb.HZ)" give me an error? 19.32.33 Join MrZeus [0] (~MrZeus@2a02:c7f:7066:fb00:d5a8:2f93:d485:b013) 19.32.40 # it says that rb.contexts is a nil value 19.34.06 # btw i have a sansa clip+ 19.36.58 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 19.37.02 Quit CR0W (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 19.38.22 Join CR0W [0] (narf@rrcs-67-53-148-69.west.biz.rr.com) 19.38.22 Quit CR0W (Changing host) 19.38.22 Join CR0W [0] (narf@unaffiliated/em64t) 19.40.45 # anybody here? 19.58.07 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 20.09.04 # <_Bilgus> lua? 20.09.53 Quit krabador (Quit: Leaving) 20.10.16 # <_Bilgus> unclenorton, are you programming in lua? 20.10.39 # yes 20.10.45 # sorry for the late answer 20.12.23 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 20.14.45 Join PimpiN8 [0] (~textual@2a02:a454:38ea:1:d8ce:80f3:c39f:9055) 20.17.00 # <_Bilgus> CONTEXT_STD is a constant value have you added the include for them? --> require "actions" 20.17.21 # <_Bilgus> IIRC that is the module they are defined in 20.20.46 Join ZincAlloy [0] (~Adium@2a02:8108:8b80:1700:45ba:f0d7:3d4d:2ec3) 20.21.07 # <_Bilgus> also having a list of all functions might help you see.. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,51935.0.html 20.21.55 # <_Bilgus> the above script will print all functions, constants, etc. available to your lua instance 20.23.16 # ok thanks, also i have a file in the root directory called IBM.c8 20.23.36 # and when i do os.open("IBM.c8", "rb"), it returns a nil value 20.23.56 # the lua file i open IBM.c8 with is also in the root directory 20.25.31 Quit prof_wolfff (Quit: Ex-Chat) 20.26.07 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@201.red-83-54-194.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) 20.28.22 Quit prof_wolfff (Client Quit) 20.28.53 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@201.red-83-54-194.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) 20.29.40 # <_Bilgus> that should be io.open('/rblua.txt', "rb") 20.30.06 # <_Bilgus> that should be io.open('/IBM.c8', "rb") 20.31.15 # <_Bilgus> also be aware in the final code you should be checking for nil rather than having the interpreter catch it 20.33.43 Quit prof_wolfff (Client Quit) 20.34.12 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@201.red-83-54-194.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) 20.34.39 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@d192-24-173-177.try.wideopenwest.com) 20.34.56 Quit prof_wolfff (Client Quit) 20.35.58 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@201.red-83-54-194.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) 20.39.41 Quit prof_wolfff (Client Quit) 20.40.52 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@201.red-83-54-194.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) 20.46.57 Quit unclenorton (Quit: Page closed) 21.05.01 # <_Bilgus> jhMikeS I'm not too sure how else to check if its the first loaded track since start-up yes we could check if the start screen is going to load WPS but barring setting a static bool after we enter I'm not sure what else could be done 21.09.01 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 21.12.40 Quit gamera (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21.17.10 # _Bilgus: I got a change that fixes that 21.21.55 # <_Bilgus> ok 21.28.09 # this solves it 100% reliably: https://pastebin.com/aX9C7PKC (just a modification of your diff to have a look) 21.29.41 # actually, the resume flags should be read and set to playback at the top of the function 21.32.26 # here it is that way: https://pastebin.com/yUyKtNkD 21.35.44 Join petur [0] (~petur@78-23-23-252.access.telenet.be) 21.35.44 Quit petur (Changing host) 21.35.44 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 21.42.52 # <_Bilgus> looks good.. 21.43.32 # oh, if you add a variable into the middle of global_settings, it can affect plugins 21.45.26 # I kind of hate the hacked up playlist stuff to get a param into playback. There's a better way to do it and it should probably work for hwcodec as well so long as it's hanging around. 21.47.32 # <_Bilgus> Oh I didn't realize that the position of variables in global settings was important :/ That kinda sucks 21.53.36 Join thomasjfox [0] (~thomasjfo@rockbox/developer/thomasjfox) 22.20.30 # <_Bilgus> jhMikeS that seems to work for the desired behavior 22.22.56 Quit prof_wolfff (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22.22.56 Quit krabador (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22.25.40 Join chrisb [0] (~chrisb@172.58.200.66) 22.27.59 Quit petur (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 22.36.44 Join petur [0] (~petur@78-23-23-252.access.telenet.be) 22.36.44 Quit petur (Changing host) 22.36.44 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 22.36.49 Quit petur (Remote host closed the connection) 22.40.37 Quit chrisb (Remote host closed the connection) 22.46.41 Join dys [0] (~dys@tmo-122-110.customers.d1-online.com) 23.09.03 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 23.26.20 Quit JanC (Remote host closed the connection) 23.26.39 Join JanC [0] (~janc@lugwv/member/JanC) 23.31.15 Quit lebellium (Quit: Leaving) 23.40.55 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 23.46.37 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.) 23.50.38 Quit benedikt93 (Remote host closed the connection) 23.52.53 Join mendelmunkis [0] (~Moshe@ool-3f8fc767.dyn.optonline.net) 23.53.18 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23.58.33 Join dvorak [0] (~Moshe@ool-3f8fc767.dyn.optonline.net)