--- Log for 15.12.121  Server: tungsten.libera.chat  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: rb-logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 5 days and 6 hours ago

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11.35.22 #       <chris_s> weird, for some reason, the latest commit (only) makes my iPod mini 2g crash when starting – even though nothing apart from a language file has changed
11.36.20 #       <chris_s> probably some issue on my end
11.38.41 #       <gevaerts> language changes can change memory usage
11.40.00 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 651853f5df, 303 builds, 12 clients.
11.40.54 #       <speachy> not likely in this case; memory usage is dictated by the superset of the largest strings of all translations
11.41.09 #       <speachy> well, we have added more strings 
11.41.16 #       <speachy> so.. maybe
11.43.00 #       <gevaerts> If it's about the very latest commit, it's not that. Italian is somewhere halfway size-wise, if the size of the language file is an indication
11.43.48 #       <speachy> aaanyway.  off to anotehr 12-hour day in the chamber of secrets.
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12.31.46 #       <tertu> got it
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15.20.38 #       <bluebrother> oh, any any thoughts on moving rbutil from qmake to cmake? That would simplify some things with all those libs we're building, and we could then use that for the "normal" tools too (i.e. ipodpatcher etc.)
15.21.55 #       <bluebrother> and will make it really simple to also build the few rbutil unit tests as part of the default build too.
16.08.40 #       <_bilgus> bluebrother, I would very much like that
16.09.51 #       <bluebrother> I'll spend some time on that then :)
16.10.03 #       <_bilgus> I found the qt process quite painful the lAST TIME
16.10.15 #       <_bilgus> ahem last time
16.10.28 #       <bluebrother> same here. Tried to build rbutil, ran into issues with ccache and  those sub-makefiles.
16.10.29 #       <_bilgus> its clearly still a bad memory :)
16.10.57 #       <bluebrother> and since we're using a build system generator we can as well use cmake. And then have it handle all the other things in utils/ too.
16.12.13 #       <_bilgus> I don't think cmake is any less murky but ^^
16.13.23 #       <bluebrother> actually, these days I consider cmake a lot better than qmake. Quite a bit more flexible. Though the syntax ... well, one needs to get used to it. And the other nice thing is that more and more IDEs support it.
16.13.41 #       * bluebrother doesn't do Visual Studio project files anymore, only cmake
16.13.49 #       <bluebrother> well, when dealing with Visual Studio that is.
16.14.34 #       <_bilgus> anyone RTL language speakers around? does it make sense to reverse the icons of a menu as well as the text?  like would it feel more intuitive to have the screen basically mirrored?
16.14.53 #       <_bilgus> well rather non-RTL
16.16.06 #       <bluebrother> Qt does that.
16.16.28 #       <bluebrother> you can see that if you start Rockbox Utility and change the language to he.
16.17.20 #       <_bilgus> so apparently its the more intuitive way I only ask because I'm consolidating the menu display to make it owner draw and its pretty trivial to flip it
16.17.26 #       <bluebrother> but that's Qt doing it, we only set it to use RTL layout. So I guess that would be the typical way for RTL.
16.17.49 #       <_bilgus> in RB not util
16.18.00 #       <bluebrother> but I don't speak any RTL languages, so I only know what I've been seeing there.
16.18.20 #       <_bilgus> yeah me either but I've always try to be inclusive
16.18.30 #       <bluebrother> yes, got that. My point was simply that Qt does that, and since we support RTL languages in Rockbox Utility you can check how that looks with that :)
16.18.37 #       <_bilgus> like rewriting the time formatter to handle RTL
16.19.25 #       <_bilgus> just the fact it does that means its probably the case elsewhere as well thanks for the datapoint :)
16.40.17 #       <_bilgus> HUH the menus aren't flipping anymore at all I wonder when RTL support got broken
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16.45.18 #       <_bilgus> speachy I've a feeling this heading towards genlang
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16.55.28 #       <_bilgus> sofar Iadded the RTL flag directly to the lang file and it does indeed work but I still need to figure out exactly where the flag is added during generation
16.56.49 #       <_bilgus> oh bluebrother  in RB the icons do flip when RTL is actually specified :p 
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18.34.13 #       <speachy> _bilgus, I've been poking at the rtl stuff, and yes, genlang is what adds that flag... but nothing seems to tell genlang to do that.
18.34.34 #       <speachy> when genlang is invoked, it needs to be told which languages are rtl.  I think that's just Hebrew and Arabic.
18.35.17 #       <speachy> so a special makefile rule needs to be added, I guess.  Or it could be added in as a special comment into the language file and genlang updated to pull it out.
18.35.48 #       <speachy> I don't know how long this has been broken, but I'd wager a _very_ long time.
18.44.05 #       <speachy> I may just embed it into the language file as an explicit translatable string, not unlike how I did the tens separator thing, and rewrite lang_is_rtl() to return true if the string is "RTL", otherwise it's created as ltr.
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18.48.16 #       <speachy> the last updates to Arabic and Hebrew were in 2010 and 2012, respectively.
18.48.44 #       <speachy> anyway.  back to the MRI conrol room.  I'll keep noodling on this.
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22.15.54 #       <_bilgus> speachy it appears genlang is set up to use /options in a similar manner to /phrase
22.16.25 #       <speachy> yep.  well, it was until the most recent build.  I decided to implement it slightly differently.
22.17.57 #       <speachy> ...instead of wading through updatelang to make it pass <options> blocks through unscathed
22.18.57 #       <speachy> but the most recent build should have correctly-flagged RTL languages.
22.19.37 #       <speachy> (actually I think translate.r.o also doesn't handle <options> properly in all cases either)
22.21.42 #       <_bilgus> oh maybe I should try updating then maybe i'm in a weird state
22.23.57 #       <_bilgus> oh you meant like this last build round :P yeah it works
22.25.49 #       <speachy> only took 18 months for someone to notice that I broke LTR.
22.25.59 #       <_bilgus> huh I guess arabic needed it to be RTL to look up the characters in the codepage it was displaying blocks last test
22.26.15 #       <speachy> well, I suppose it's not that surprising given the poor state of those translations.
22.27.25 #       <_bilgus> I wish I had more of a knack for languages but alas only programming languages
22.28.27 #       <_bilgus> not to mention if you take the percentage of userbase in those two RTL langs i bet its vanishingly small
22.28.55 #       <_bilgus> still cool that we can do it though :D
22.29.58 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision f496e1fb97, 303 builds, 11 clients.
22.31.07 #       <speachy> getting translations in makes me happy
22.32.43 #       <speachy> My language skills are limited to English, and Bad English.  and Really Bad Arabic that's atrophied from not being used in 25 years
22.38.06 #       <speachy> one thing I'm considering trying to implement -- when the voiced string is the same as english, switch to the english voice
22.38.22 #       <speachy> so we don't pronounce english using non-english rules
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22.38.44 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision f496e1fb97 result: All green
22.38.48 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 6a6f5fbd6c, 303 builds, 11 clients.
22.41.25 #       <speachy> ...tonight we'll start generating Turkish voice files too.
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23.16.26 #       <_bilgus> thats a good point its slightly jaring visually i'm sure auditor is worse
23.16.30 #       <_bilgus> y
23.17.26 #       <_bilgus> I'm kinda playing with owner drawn list items I'd like to implement a way to do a spreadsheet within the list
23.18.20 #       <_bilgus> I keep seeing the list where the items are boxed and with some spacing and rounded corners it wouldn't be a half bad button interface for the TS
23.18.54 #       <speachy> are any of the current pictureflow tickets relevant?
23.19.20 #       <_bilgus> hard telling chris_s has some stuff up I think
23.20.00 #       <_bilgus> if older than 3.14 i'd say probably likely no point in saving
23.20.09 #       <_bilgus> 3.15 rather
23.20.14 #       <speachy> I don't want to do blanket closing of old (== <2011) tickets but... 
23.21.17 #       <_bilgus> yeah there has been at least 2 partial rewrites since then
23.23.38 #       <speachy> I've been trying to backfill in capabilities for translations/voice but for the most part they're going unutilized.  Or at least nobody's commenting one way or another.
23.24.21 #       <speachy> eg FS#10340 might actually be fixed now.  Or at least there's the technical capability if the translation is updated appropriately.
23.24.22 #       <rb-bluebot> https://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10340 3bad voicing in the chinese language (bugs, unconfirmed)
23.24.32 #       <speachy> (reported agains v3.2)
23.24.53 #       <_bilgus> wow
23.25.42 #       <speachy> if I understand this correctly (and I might not be) it's the basic "three hundred five and twenty" construct that many non-english languages use.
23.26.17 #       <speachy> but we need folks who are fluent enough to comment.
23.47.58 #       <speachy> _bilgus: here's one for ya:  fs#10541
23.47.59 #       <rb-bluebot> https://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/10541 3Wrong value used when changing scroll bar width (bugs, unconfirmed)
23.49.46 #       * speachy yawns.
23.50.16 #       <speachy> ok, time to pack it in. triaging (well, mostly closing) old bug tickets isn't exactly a good reason to stay up.