--- Log for 23.05.123  Server: copper.libera.chat  Channel: #rockbox
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10.28.57 #       <olk> hey, is there any info on NWZ-S765 port? there's no nwz-s760 entry in Player list on SonyNW page
10.31.16 #       <speachy> If it's not there, it doesn't exist.
10.31.26 #       <speachy> not the answer you wanted, but that's what it is...
10.32.12 #       <olk> sad. it's also said there that s760 and a860 have same hardware
10.33.29 #       <olk> mp200 is pretty well documented, isn't it?
10.35.02 #       <braewoods> mp200?
10.35.20 #       <olk> yeah, the SoC
10.35.38 #       <olk> ... the NW-E060/NW-S760/NW-A860/NWZ-S760/NWZ-A860 series all share the same hardware ...
10.35.47 #       <braewoods> even if it is, it's moot if there's no one to put in the effort.
10.36.37 #       <olk> well, I have the device but lack knowledge
10.37.26 #       <braewoods> speachy, will there come a time that we drop ports for devices that are so rare today that we can no longer guarantee current code is still working on them?
10.37.41 #       <speachy> heh, that would be most of them?
10.37.46 #       <braewoods> Yea, I guess so.
10.38.01 #       <braewoods> I would define that as anything that is too rare to find second hand within reason.
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10.38.40 #       <braewoods> It would simplify the codebase, but what would we be left with?
10.38.58 #       <speachy> we tried a big push a couple of years back to get folks to re-test things after the toolchain bump; I don't think we got rports  than about 2/3rds.
10.39.26 #       <speachy> the big simplification was nuking HWCODEC support, everything else is just incremental.
10.39.38 #       <braewoods> Fair I guess.
10.39.55 #       <braewoods> I was just noting that the MPIO stuff is so rare now that it is next to impossible to find at all.
10.40.28 #       <braewoods> Can't really fix issues for stuff we can't test.
10.40.54 #       <speachy> Other complications: tiny-mem targets (original Clip, and a couple others) and devices that have dedicated USB hardware (eg the old iRiver ports)
10.41.11 #       <braewoods> right, no software USB.
10.41.20 #       <braewoods> but the iriver stuff is still used.
10.41.37 #       <speachy> those are the ones that cause mutiple architectural approaches in the code.
10.42.14 #       <speachy> beyond that, each additional target adds some device drivers but that's about it.
10.42.59 #       <speachy> I'd wager that, other than the various iPods and the dwindling numbers of still-operational Sansa players, the rest of the list is largely irrelevant.
10.43.14 #       <speachy> basically, flash wears out.
10.43.25 #       <braewoods> probably, at least the units which cannot be repaired easily.
10.43.33 #       <braewoods> the HDD units are an exception.
10.43.42 #       <braewoods> Socketed storage in a sense.
10.43.48 #       <speachy> the ErosQ/K clones seem to still be popping up
10.44.05 #       <braewoods> Or ones like the x3 where all the storage is external sd cards.
10.44.06 #       <olk> sorry to interrupt, do you need the help_us paste from nwz-s765? or there will be no efforts to port s760?
10.44.08 #       <speachy> basically if it doesn't have removeable/replaceable storage, it's gonna die.
10.44.39 #       <braewoods> olk, if it's not already supported i doubt anyone would put in the effort now.
10.44.48 #       <speachy> IIRC the linux-based Sonys are all pretty similar, but I don't know what specifics are needed to generate a working build for any given device.
10.45.43 #       <olk> speachy: if you confirm what braewoods said, I'm not going to bother you guys any longer
10.45.57 #       <speachy> our longtime Sony guy hasn't been active in a long time
10.46.25 #       <braewoods> I've done some contributions like repairing the H100/H200 bootloaders.
10.46.30 #       <speachy> olk: what braewoods didn't mention is that that somebody could be you.  :D
10.46.57 #       <braewoods> Yea, but I can't recommend that kind of work to someone who has never written C before.
10.47.58 #       <speachy> gotta start somewhere.  And if it's just a matter of adding another NWZ variant, it's mostly a copy-paste job, and nearly none of that is C.
10.48.07 #       <braewoods> my little project of writing a kind of background service for some unix OS is coming along but slowly.
10.48.30 #       <olk> speachy: huh, I can do that
10.49.19 #       <braewoods> Maybe, but we can't guarantee the end result will work, given the subject matter expert is no longer around.
10.49.48 #       <olk> who's the sony expert?
10.50.14 #       <braewoods> I don't know, you'd have to ask speachy. Anyway, you should get a rockbox development environment setup if you want to try this.
10.50.40 #       <braewoods> It sounds like you won't have to change anything but some script code I think.
10.51.45 #       <speachy> apouly was the Sony maintainer, but hasn't been heard from in about two years.
10.52.00 #       <olk> :O
10.52.16 #       <speachy> well, from rockbox's perspective anyway.  
10.53.16 #       <braewoods> speachy, we still on gcc 4.9?
10.53.23 #       <braewoods> Or have we upgraded again?
10.54.29 #       <speachy> yep, 4.9.4 for all targets.  I have a 8.5.x-based toolchain in gerrit, but only a handful of targets have been tested with it.
10.55.22 #       <braewoods> ah.
10.55.44 #       <olk> mp200 uses arm-elf-eabi target?
10.56.02 #       <speachy> annoyingly due to make 4.4, the hosted toolchains won't build properly; havent' managed to fix it yet.
10.56.15 #       <braewoods> most of the rockbox targets are some flavor of ARM so probably.
10.56.39 #       <braewoods> speachy, what's special with gnu make 4.4?
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10.57.12 #       <speachy> short version is they broke some stuff relating to recursive parallel builds.
10.57.19 #       <braewoods> so, upstream bug?
10.57.28 #       <speachy> (broke other stuff too but that was easily fixed in a backwards-compatible manner)
10.58.17 #       <speachy> upstream in the sense that the failures are in the ancient glibc versions we need.
10.58.36 #       <braewoods> Oh.
10.59.05 #       <speachy> the symptom is that the build basically hangs/deadlocks, with two CPU cores pegged.
10.59.18 #       <speachy> might be able to work around it by moving to a non-parallel build though.
10.59.51 #       <braewoods> But why would the glibc version matter to make?
11.00.01 #       <braewoods> I could see it matter to the compiler but make?
11.00.31 #       <speachy> olk: if it's a linux-based target then it would use the arm-rockbox-linux-gnueabi- prefix
11.00.54 #       <braewoods> basically hosted vs native.
11.00.55 #       <speachy> braewoods: becasuse glibc utilizes some seriously convoluted makefiles?
11.00.59 #       <braewoods> Oh.
11.01.24 #       <braewoods> One is where Rockbox runs as the kernel and the other as a Linux application.
11.01.51 #       <speachy> we have to compile a libc for a non-baremetal toolchain, and since all of our hosted targets use glibc, we're stuck with that.
11.02.06 #       <olk> speachy: I chose arm-linux target in rockboxdev.sh if that's what you meant
11.02.23 #       <braewoods> which would be moot if we had the full original linux distribution source but we don't usually.
11.02.32 #       <speachy> basically I went as new as I could but what we build has to be ABI compatible with the userspace that's already on the targets.
11.02.41 #       <braewoods> Yea.
11.02.59 #       <braewoods> I mean, it is possible to bypass libc, but not sure that's advisable for rockbox to do.
11.03.10 #       <speachy> the original source isn't a problem; it's _building_ those sources on modern systems.
11.03.48 #       <speachy> sony/etc didn't do anything special.
11.04.07 #       <braewoods> Using ASM, it is possible to bypass libc but it's not usually advisable.
11.04.48 #       <speachy> eh, it's not asm that's the problem, but we'd have to implement our own syscall layer.
11.04.48 #       <braewoods> I have done it in experiments, making direct system calls, but it requires you to discover the kernel APIs for yourself instead of letting libc sort it out for you.
11.05.03 #       <braewoods> Yea, I know.
11.05.46 #       <braewoods> I prefer to just let the compiler and libc deal with most of the ASM matters though. :P
11.13.48 #       <speachy> fwiw the current hosted 4.9.4 toolchains won't build with make 4.4 too.
11.33.36 #       <braewoods> heh. my ubuntu ships with 4.3
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12.19.35 #       <olk> damn, glibc still compiling
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12.30.13 #       <speachy> well, crap. even for a non-parallel build, glibc 2.27 with gmake 4.4 still hangs.
12.32.01 #       <fourHZ> i drowned my xduoo xII with rain rain water. the keys are sensitive now. giving multiple impulses after press. and after shutdown the thing boots up again in seconds. would you suggest to open the thing up and clean the contacts?
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12.47.34 #       <speachy> yeah, open it up, and some rubbing alcohol or (better yet) contact cleaner should do the trick.
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13.16.27 #       <fourHZ> i expected an X screwdriver and it is torx... got to get it.
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14.50.53 #       <olk> speachy: hey, you still here? I think it's not ok for glibc-2.19 to compile for ~4 hours
14.53.44 #       <speachy> if you check 'top' I'll bet you have one or two 'make' processes using 100% of the CPU.
14.53.54 #       <olk> yeah, two
14.54.05 #       <speachy> you have make 4.4?
14.54.11 #       <speachy> (make -v)
14.54.23 #       <olk> 4.4.1
14.54.34 #       <speachy> yep, that'll do it.
14.54.56 #       <speachy> I have something working for glibc 2.27, trying to backport it to 2.20 right now.
14.55.25 #       <speachy> with luck they'll apply to the 2.26/2.19 that we're using for the current toolchains.
14.56.34 #       <olk> terminate this build and wait for your ping?
14.56.38 #       <speachy> yeah
14.57.22 #       <speachy> there are two independent problems, the first can be fixed by not doign a parallel build, but the second is actually a cicrular dependency.
15.01.02 #       <olk> how do I tell rockboxdev.sh to use one thread for building toolchain? --makeflags="-j1"?
15.02.01 #       <speachy> you'd have to edit the script to disable that actually
15.02.06 #       <speachy> but it's not enough
15.03.41 #       <braewoods> speachy, i assume that issue was reported to make's upstream?
15.03.50 #       <speachy> it's not a make bug per se, it's glibc.
15.04.01 #       <braewoods> so why does old make work?
15.04.31 #       <speachy> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2022-10/msg00008.html
15.04.42 #       <speachy> look for "Backward-incompatibility"
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15.05.53 #       <speachy> ok, successfully built both mips and arm gcc8.5 toolchains.
15.06.05 #       <speachy> now to see about backporting these patches..
15.06.06 #       <olk> nice
15.06.18 #       <speachy> granted I don't know if they actually _work_  :D
15.06.33 #       <braewoods> speachy, could a temporary workaround be to create a custom build of make that still works?
15.07.07 #       <speachy> in theory, yep.
15.07.28 #       <braewoods> I don't see what else you can do but patch the glibc source, if you could figure out what needed to change.
15.09.03 #       <braewoods> speachy, is it about the order of makefiles being rebuilt?
15.09.13 #       <braewoods> I can't see anything else that might be relevant.
15.10.03 #       <speachy> 2.19 applies cleanly enough...
15.10.10 #       <speachy> but 2.25 doesn't.
15.10.35 #       <braewoods> oh, you already have some kind of fix patches?
15.12.01 #       <speachy> I've had a partial fix for at least a month, but the other stuff I didn't try to dig into until last night.
15.26.49 #       <speachy> ok, doing rebuilds of the toolchain now.  fingers crossed.
15.58.28 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 3acd5f86e5, 303 builds, 9 clients.
15.58.28 #       <rb-bluebot> 3build: Fix problems compiling old glibc with gmake >= 4.4 by Solomon Peachy
15.59.07 #       <speachy> olk: if you grab the latest git code, it will have the fixes for generating the olde toolchains with gmake 4.4
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16.12.13 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Build round completed after 826 seconds.
16.12.14 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision 3acd5f86e5 result: All green
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17.18.26 #       <olk> I have an error building alsa-lib, here's my /tmp/rbdev-build/build-alsa-lib-1.0.19.log: http://0x0.st/HqM2.txt
17.19.01 #       <olk> it's midnight here though, so I'll come back to this in the morning, in 9 hours
17.19.27 #       <olk> goodnight o/
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