--- Log for 05.07.123  Server: erbium.libera.chat  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: rb-logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 8 days and 20 hours ago

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10.07.30 #       <speachy> hey, this might be of interest to folks here..
10.07.32 #       <speachy> https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/
10.08.23 #       <speachy> the tl;dr:  the automatic matrix<->IRC gateway on libera.chat is going away, and if individual channels want to keep that functionality, they have to take their own steps to continue
10.09.32 #       <buZz> thank heavens!
10.10.07 #       <speachy> what that entails hasn't been detailed yet, but as there at least a few rockbox devs that use that matrix portal, I assume keeping such functionality going is desired.
10.10.36 #       <buZz> lol wtf > Over the last 9 years, the IRC bridge has had its share of problems
10.10.45 #       <buZz> libera isnt even 9 years old, wtf are they on about :D
10.11.14 #       <speachy> it's not unique to libera
10.11.40 #       <kirvesAxe> IRC is 35 years old...
10.11.45 #       <buZz> kirvesAxe: more
10.11.55 #       <buZz> wait, no
10.11.56 #       <buZz> 1988
10.12.08 #       <speachy> and most of the libera admins were keeping the freenode stuuff going before that.
10.12.12 #       <buZz> funny, i've been on irc for most its life now :D cool
10.12.14 #       <kirvesAxe> buZz, ;)
10.12.46 #       <buZz> i hope this is the beginning of matrix' VC running out
10.12.51 #       <speachy> ANYway.  
10.13.03 #       <speachy> Matrix has VC funding?
10.13.14 #       <buZz> there's really such high odds anyone with [m] joining a channel is a spammer, some channels already banned the whole matrix ipv6 range
10.14.04 #       <speachy> I'd personally not care but I know at least a couple of our "active" developers use it regularly.
10.14.08 #       <buZz> speachy: most 'this is better than IRC!' chats do
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10.15.04 #       <speachy> buZz: yep, quite true, but Matrix isnt' really a "company" in the same sense.  No VC would ever fund something that's open and federated from teh outset.  :D
10.15.40 #       <buZz> perhaps
10.15.50 #       <buZz> either way, funding will run out on matrix eventually
10.16.03 #       <buZz> there's no business model and its a single entity maintaining most of it 
10.17.05 #       <buZz> this post reads to -me- like they already cant afford more effort into these bridges 
10.17.18 #       <buZz> so, imho hopefully, beginning of the end
10.17.24 #       <speachy> I hope not.
10.17.58 #       <speachy> the alternative is $bigtech-controlled silos.
10.18.09 #       <buZz> irc is a bigtech-controlled silo?
10.18.29 #       <speachy> and/or yet-another-mobile-only tool
10.18.55 #       <speachy> IRC is barely comparable in its feature sets
10.18.59 #       <buZz> good
10.19.11 #       <buZz> so the alternative to using IRC is $bigtech-controlled silo
10.19.16 #       <buZz> thats fine by me, good riddance
10.19.43 #       <speachy> IRC has zero persistence.  Which is ... really crappy for most use cases.
10.19.51 #       <buZz> not for chat though
10.19.56 #       <buZz> chat isnt a forum
10.19.59 #       <buZz> chat isnt a blog
10.20.01 #       <buZz> chat is chat
10.20.08 #       <buZz> inherently volatile
10.20.09 #       <speachy> IRC is a virtal water cooler
10.20.32 #       <buZz> like, if i call you a poopiehead on here -today-
10.20.34 #       <buZz> thats just chat
10.20.39 #       <speachy> and has its own layers-upon-layers of cruft hacked onto it to keep it going.
10.20.44 #       <buZz> not 'this will forever be on google to find by anyone'
10.20.52 #       <speachy> except everyhting in this channel is persistently logged
10.20.54 #       <speachy> heh
10.20.58 #       <buZz> sure
10.21.03 #       <buZz> but thats not a feature of -irc-
10.21.06 #       <speachy> and indexed by googleee.
10.21.10 #       <buZz> its a feature of humans
10.21.31 #       <speachy> Yes, but enough projjects out there need that functionality and have to reinvent the same wheels
10.21.37 #       <buZz> good
10.21.51 #       <speachy> Matrix, Jabber etc are messaging services first, with group  chat bolted onto the side.
10.21.55 #       <buZz> as kirvesAxe said, they've had 35 years time to practise
10.22.28 #       <buZz> my biggest gripe with that matrix spam , is the 'reply format' 
10.22.37 #       <buZz> its so dissonant to -anything- that happens on IRC
10.23.10 #       <speachy> and messaging is not something I want to haave to completely cede over to $bigtech/$bigtelco or otherwise tie to a physical device that can get lost, stolen, or damaged.
10.23.17 #       <buZz> almost like they never even -used- irc before they fought to abuse it to veign usage 
10.23.54 #       <buZz> numbers in that article dont lie :P the 'libera bridge' were used by ~10k matrix users and ~30k irc users
10.24.01 #       <buZz> hence, most ppl use irc with irc
10.24.23 #       <buZz> i totally understand people want aids, but matrix is not a aid for irc, just a burdon
10.24.36 #       <speachy> I know sevveral large communities that rely on that bridge bbbbeing there.
10.25.02 #       <buZz> right, so it didnt even exist before?
10.25.04 #       <speachy> (sorry about the duplicate letters. I keep getting random input lag here)
10.26.51 #       <buZz> ah well, pretty offtopic for here
10.26.57 #       <speachy> IRC is "old school" -- its users are comfortable with its warts but it's a significant barrier to entry for everyone else.  
10.28.09 #       <speachy> True, it is kinda offtopic, but on the other hand, it's something Rockbox has a vested interest in -- we have so few contributors, and if there are things we can do to remove someee of the initial pain points, it's in our own longer-term interest.
10.28.30 #       <speachy> (And I say that as the inevitable Mr.Somebody that will probably have to perform that work...)
10.30.15 #       <buZz> :)
10.30.24 #       <buZz> also an option is not relying on prefab bridges
10.30.42 #       <speachy> yeah, that's what the current path forward appears to be.
10.30.56 #       <speachy> I intend to opt into that stuff.
10.31.20 #       <buZz> thats using the prefab bridge then?
10.31.43 #       <buZz> you can do -portalled- with your own bridge
10.31.47 #       <speachy> a more focused bridge than the 'we automagically bridge EVERYTHING'
10.31.49 #       <buZz> or -plumbed- with the prefab
10.31.59 #       <speachy> portalled,then
10.32.37 #       <speachy> when details are available I'll see what it entails and what the "price" is.
10.35.50 #       <speachy> heh.  even keeping our logbot going has entailed a non-trivial amount of work.  
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16.18.42 #       <solrize> wow glad this channel is still around.  this looks interesting: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5742
16.20.47 #       <speachy> interesting PCB shape.  
16.22.00 #       <solrize> yeah i don't understand the purpose of that shape
16.22.44 #       <solrize> wonder if that pcb trace on the right is supposed to be a touch sensor
16.24.56 #       <speachy> we've talked about using an ESP32 before; it's not a terribly good candidate for a port, even at their highest end.
16.25.29 #       <speachy> I think that trace is meant to have a membrrane-type button on top.
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18.13.37 #       <braewoods_> speachy, the impression i get is the best situation is probably running as a Linux application on a Linux ARM board that somehow has the right features to be a viable mp3 player.
18.14.08 #       <braewoods_> which probably means a phone SoC or other mobile device being repurposed
18.14.10 #       <speachy> what makes a viable mp3 player is the physical form factor (&enclosure)
18.14.23 #       <braewoods_> yea, that and the hardware being viable for it too.
18.14.24 #       <speachy> anything else is frankly just a toy.
18.15.54 #       <braewoods_> most systems have proprietary battery solutions but i've always wondered if you could build one that used USB HID POWER instead.
18.16.49 #       <speachy> HID power is just a data/control plane for charging; you'd still need onboard power management.
18.21.08 #       <speachy> and, at minimum, a design that isn't predicated on having a 5V supply.
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18.27.41 #       <speachy> The act of porting RB to a random Linux target is pretty trivial.  The pain is adapting that target to a new form factor.
18.28.13 #       <braewoods_> yea, it just seems like the most likely situation given economics.
18.28.18 #       <speachy> oh, to a lesser extent, providing a clean integration/installation process.
18.28.39 #       <speachy> economics means our only real option is to adapt existing player hardware.
18.28.42 #       <braewoods_> it's too bad there's not as much interest in rockbox as there is in the retro scene.
18.29.09 #       <speachy> heh, the "retro scene" is also nearly entirely depenedent on piracy.
18.29.33 #       <braewoods_> well, one might say the same about the music people would put on a player.
18.29.52 #       <braewoods_> i was mostly thinking in terms of hardware.
18.30.11 #       <braewoods_> i was watching the progress on the commander x16.
18.30.29 #       <speachy> once upon a time, that was arguably true, but today... one has actual choices wheere to buy music.
18.30.48 #       <speachy> whereas the retro stuff, nearly none of it is available commercially.
18.31.06 #       <braewoods_> right, and since audio CDs are still just as usable as they were 50 years ago...
18.31.08 #       <speachy> (and when it is, it's not sold for use on those platforms)
18.31.37 #       <speachy> how many people have dumped their own ROMs?  :)
18.32.07 #       <braewoods_> kinda funny how out of all the old media storage types, optical disks have outlasted all of their now dead competitors
18.32.25 #       <braewoods_> in terms of finding stuff that can read them.
18.33.04 #       <speachy> none of its "successors" ever amounted to much; they cost more for no benefit.
18.33.22 #       <speachy> because it turns out the Mk I human ear really does suck
18.34.29 #       <speachy> and, heh, the number of "audiophiles" that go on and on about compression artifacts end up playing things via bluetooth anyway.  :D
18.34.33 #       <braewoods_> it's weird seeing all the stuff people are doing to keep antiquated systems running.
18.35.05 #       <braewoods_> old vintage PCs being outfitted with flash based replacements for their bulky hard drives.
18.35.39 #       <speachy> well, folks have always had questionable hobbies.  it's their time and money, after all.
18.35.55 #       <braewoods_> I'd sooner just emulate it. :D
18.36.03 #       <speachy> heck, rockbox's current existance  an example of that questionable mentality.
18.38.37 #       <braewoods_> speachy, you been reading up on C23?
18.38.47 #       <braewoods_> not that a lot of it would apply to rockbox anytime soon
18.39.30 #       <speachy> not really; it seemed like the goall was to pull C closer to C++'s awfulness.
18.39.48 #       <braewoods_> well it has some extra preprocessor features.
18.39.56 #       <braewoods_> one of which seemed particularly interesting
18.40.16 #       <braewoods_> #embed. But GCC doesn't yet implement it.
18.40.37 #       <braewoods_> it's useful for converting binary files into a C compatible array.
18.41.08 #       <braewoods_> but honestly i kinda had the feeling it would have been better to just add that as a compiler feature.
18.41.21 #       <braewoods_> instead of a preprocessor.
18.41.56 #       <braewoods_> i saw potential in it for applications that want to embed binary data directly into their executable.
18.42.11 #       <braewoods_> to date that has required extra effort from the build system to achieve.
18.43.52 #       <speachy> #embed is the only feature I've considered useful, but since we already have tooling to achieve somethign similar...
18.44.06 #       <speachy> great for newer efforts though
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