--- Log for 19.10.123  Server: cadmium.libera.chat  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: rb-logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 6 days and 11 hours ago

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05.56.11 #       <buZz> https://www.crowdsupply.com/cool-tech-zone/tangara
05.56.14 #       <buZz> looks pretty cool!
05.56.25 #       <buZz> bit weird that they didnt implement rockbox for it though
06.10.30 #       <CH23> buZz, maybe they´re not aware rockbox exists?
06.10.53 #       <buZz> how can they be a) into actual mp3 players and b) not know about rockbox 
06.10.54 #       <buZz> :D
06.11.20 #       <CH23> it´s the only answer i can think of, for why they didn´t implement rockbox ;)
06.14.45 #       <buZz> rockbox mailing list complains about esp32 performance already
06.14.56 #       <buZz> but, with octal psram , i think its pretty fast?
06.15.10 #       <buZz> at least the linux port for esp32 uses it and doesnt feel very slow
06.15.30 #       <buZz> https://marc.info/?m=168044060629573
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08.42.35 #       <ReReBS> The inline controls of my KZ earbuds aren't working on Rockbox 3.15 (iPod Classic) but they work fine when plugged into a smartphone.
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08.57.21 #       <CH23> if i recall correctly there´s a setting to turn those on/off
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08.58.17 #       <CH23> [14:57:21] <CH23> if i recall correctly there´s a setting to turn those on/off ReReBS 
08.59.18 #       <ReReBS> CH23: Do you know where it's located? I went looking for something like that but I couldn't find anything.
09.01.28 #       <CH23> seems it´s not there anymore, or i´m confusing it with another player
09.01.31 #       <CH23> one sec
09.03.47 #       <CH23> ReReBS, did it used to work?
09.04.56 #       <ReReBS> I'm fairly new to Rockbox. I've never had it work before but simply because I've never tried until now.
09.07.58 #       <CH23> i think it was never programmed
09.09.06 #       <ReReBS> That's annoying, seems like a no-brainer to support it. Oh well, thanks for the help.
09.11.23 #       <CH23> ReReBS, anyone willing to program it in, can do so
09.11.48 #       <CH23> the main devs are mostly occupied by core functionality
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10.38.15 #       <speachy> CH23, buZz:  It's built on an ESP32, so it's likely underpowered for the full Rockbox feature set.
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10.41.20 #       <speachy> make that _very_ underpowrered.  
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10.45.12 #       <speachy> It utilizes a ESP32-WROOM-32D SoM.  Up to 240MHz clock, and while the module has 4MB of SPI flash on it, I think this design only has the on-chip ~500K of SRAM.
10.50.19 #       <speachy> firmware is also C++, and tightly coupled to the ESP32 framework
10.52.57 #       <speachy> I wish them the best.  If that is successful then maybe there will be sufficient interest to build something more capable.
10.53.31 #       <speachy> (...and I hope they're not ripping off Apple's look/feel too closely; apple is notoriously litigous when it comes to that stuff)
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11.20.26 #       <spork> some of the files in their repo are named gay-ipod
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11.22.24 #       <speachy> yeah, I snerked over that
11.22.31 #       <speachy> it's a happy ipod, eh!
11.23.02 #       <speachy> their choice of a ESP32 module with builtin wifi/bt is interesting.  Probably don't have the code space to take advantage of it.
11.25.04 #       <speachy> I wonder what their enclosure production plans are -- 3d printing, or something more mass-produced?
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11.58.32 #       <spork> i wonder if such a basic shape can be done as injection molding by some prototyping run
11.58.42 #       <spork> probably needs a friend at such a company
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13.59.22 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 759aaecdff, 304 builds, 10 clients.
13.59.23 #       <rb-bluebot> 3Playlist Viewer: Eliminate 'dirty' flag by Christian Soffke
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14.09.52 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision 759aaecdff result: All green
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14.41.07 #       <rb-bluebot> 3Track Info [Playlist] field: Add playlist name by Christian Soffke
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15.08.16 #       <kirvesAxe> It seems the RockBoxUtility is unusable (unless you get lucky with the autodetect), tried it on two different computers on two different OS, the Windows one did not autodetect, the Linux one did autodetect that I have a player connected but claimed I have six and demanded that I disconnect the others (instead of metting me just choose which clone of the almost-identical hardware it is), and manual 
15.08.22 #       <kirvesAxe> detection is impossible since neither version has the ability to choose a mountpoint, the menu for that does not react to being clicked in any way :(
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15.23.42 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 34408af994, 304 builds, 10 clients.
15.23.42 #       <rb-bluebot> 3Fix warble error 4cfd7cc by Christian Soffke
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15.38.35 #       <rb-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision 34408af994 result: All green
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16.45.45 #       <buZz> speachy: that ESP32 model can have up to 256Mbit external PSRAM through Octal SPI, lot faster than you might think ;)
16.46.28 #       <buZz> and injection molding is awesome if you have 50000 euro to waste on a mold for it ;)
16.46.44 #       <buZz> seems unlikely that mp3 player total profit will even be 50k
16.47.43 #       <buZz> and dont forget, that ESP32 is dualcore (actually 3 or 4 cores if you include the lowpower cores)
16.48.29 #       <speachy> IIRC the address space only allows for 4MB directly mapped in at any point in time
16.48.36 #       <buZz> nah
16.48.54 #       <buZz> as i said , the -native linux- that runs on the ESP32 can use the whole ram at once
16.48.56 #       <speachy> but the point being _that_ particular design doesn't have external PSRAM.
16.48.58 #       <buZz> psram*
16.49.37 #       <speachy> (or at least it's not immediately identifiable on the BoM)
16.49.55 #       <buZz> so, if linux can run, why not rockbox?
16.52.59 #       <speachy> "Due to this address mapping the ESP32 can address up to 15MB external Flash and  8MB External SRAM"
16.53.11 #       <buZz> thats false
16.53.23 #       <speachy> That's a direct quote from the ESP32 reference manual.
16.53.29 #       <speachy> Section 1.3.3
16.53.32 #       <buZz> which ESP32 version?
16.53.46 #       <buZz> wait, they're not even using a ESP32-S3? tssk
16.53.50 #       <speachy> https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32_technical_reference_manual_en.pdf
16.54.02 #       <speachy> that's the document linked from the ESP32-VROOM-32D datasheet.
16.54.03 #       <buZz> there's ~10 different ESP32 versions
16.55.18 #       <speachy> also in that section is the actual memory map table, there's only 4MB of address space for the PSRAM (and 4MB for flash).  Which can be banked in.
16.56.07 #       <speachy> so, while I don't doubt there are some high-end ESP32s that can do all sorts of things, there are also much lower-end cores that can't, including the one on the module that's at the heart of the Tangara design.
16.56.14 #       <buZz> geee, their projectname is gay-ipod? O_o
16.56.57 #       <speachy> the actual core here is the LX6.  
16.56.58 #       <buZz> the -actual- ESP32 module they have in their design is ESP32-WROVER-IE-N16R8 , not ESP32-WROOM-32D
16.57.12 #       <buZz> yeah, xtensa core, supported in gcc and linux
16.57.48 #       <speachy> I'm just going on what the bom said
16.57.57 #       <buZz> yes https://git.sr.ht/~jacqueline/tangara-hw/tree/main/item/mainboard/gay-ipod.xml#L553
16.58.03 #       <buZz> asys ESP32-WROVER-IE-N16R8
16.58.05 #       <buZz> says*
16.58.26 #       <speachy> "43","1","U15","ESP32-WROVER","symbols:ESP32-WROOM","footprints:ESP32-WROVER","https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32-wroom-32d_esp32-wroom-32u_datasheet_en.pdf","","","","","","ESP32-WROVER-IE-N16R8","","","","","","",""
16.58.35 #       <buZz> exactly ESP32-WROVER-IE-N16R8
16.58.40 #       <buZz> the pdf is the wrong one
16.58.50 #       <buZz> should be https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32-wrover-e_esp32-wrover-ie_datasheet_en.pdf 
16.58.59 #       <speachy> So they're a little confused with their text.  (and the end of hte line required a lot of scrolling)
16.59.22 #       <buZz> yeah, i can see people that name projects 'gay-ipod' not being the most precise in descriptions
16.59.53 #       <speachy> their bom uses the two interchangeably.  someone was sloppy.
17.00.07 #       <buZz> the photo of internals has the WROVER aswell
17.00.41 #       <speachy> well, the WROVER still uses the LX6 MCU but lookkee here, 8MB of on-module PSRAM
17.01.07 #       <buZz> ofcourse its still using LX6, afaik its the only xtensa core IP they licensed
17.01.08 #       <speachy> 4MB directly accessable at a time, though through an MMU it might be possible to play games.
17.01.22 #       <buZz> linux literally runs, using whole PSRAM
17.01.53 #       <speachy> that's certainly capable of rockbox.  though I'm not sure how bad the performance penalty of PSRAM will be, especially for random access
17.02.05 #       <buZz> likely just fine
17.02.21 #       <speachy> IIRC the ESP32 maxes out at 80MHz for the PSRAM attachment
17.02.31 #       <buZz> random benchmarks show ~100MB/sec
17.02.36 #       <buZz> likely -plenty- for rockbox
17.02.43 #       <speachy> 100MB/s is not going to be on the LX6.
17.02.56 #       <buZz> yes, on the LX6
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17.03.51 #       <speachy> hah, NOT RECOMMENDED FOR NEW DESIGNS"
17.03.53 #       <buZz> 120Mhz maxed out, btw
17.04.10 #       <buZz> https://i.imgur.com/YBq5HZQ.png
17.05.56 #       <speachy> devil's in the details, eh?
17.06.57 #       <buZz> do you have any actual experience with ESP32?
17.07.12 #       <speachy> nope, just going on public datasheets.  
17.07.49 #       <speachy> don't get me wrong, I'm pleasantly surprised to see this thing is higher-spec'd than was first apparent.
17.08.13 #       <speachy> makes me wonder why they didn't plan on rockbox from the outset vs a whole new firmware.
17.08.24 #       <buZz> that was indeed my initial question
17.09.09 #       <speachy> that WROVER module is $3.28 in single-unit quantities too, nice.
17.13.40 #       <buZz> yeah kinda expensive
17.13.43 #       <buZz> compared to others
17.13.54 #       <speachy> actually, no, it's cheap
17.14.09 #       <buZz> not sure where you're watching ;) but i get em <2 usd
17.14.20 #       <speachy> that's right off digikey.
17.14.25 #       <buZz> digikey :D :D
17.14.27 #       <buZz> ok boomer
17.14.33 #       <speachy> well, yeah.
17.14.54 #       <speachy> gives a good way to compare relative prices.
17.15.11 #       <buZz> totally, and see what they make you pay for their import costs
17.15.47 #       <buZz> keep in mind, all exports from CN to US are -still- being 'fined' since Tramp
17.16.07 #       <speachy> naturally.
17.16.10 #       <buZz> remove US from the equation and suddenly the whole world is cheaper
17.16.41 #       <speachy> for those of us _in_ the US though, wrangling overseas produtction houses for protoyypes etc really isn't cost-effective.
17.16.59 #       <buZz> yeah must suck to live in a colony that hasnt been returned to its natives
17.17.45 #       <speachy> ok, that WROVER module just has Quad SPI PSRAM.  
17.17.58 #       <buZz> can still run at 120Mhz
17.18.04 #       <buZz> but yeah , bit less fast
17.18.31 #       <buZz> are you sure btw? N16R8 <-- i though -all- R8 modules had octal
17.19.26 #       <speachy> well, this is just the generic schematic for the WROVER-IE 
17.19.31 #       <buZz> ah, indeed
17.19.43 #       <buZz> https://i.imgur.com/CQ3FOCx.png
17.21.26 #       <buZz> so the specific ESP32 inside that WROVER module is the ESP32­D0WD­V3
17.21.53 #       <speachy> ffs, jfc they don't make it easy to find this information.
17.22.31 #       <buZz> -just- that ESP32 chip is 1.5 for 1 @ https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/espressif-systems/ESP32-D0WD-V3/11657613
17.23.41 #       <buZz> maybe i should just email the gay-ipod people and demand a free 'sample' to try to shoehorn rockbox onto it ;)
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17.25.20 #       <speachy> in a former life I helped build something morally equivalent to these modules with ST parts.
17.28.33 #       <speachy> well, no demands necessary, it would be mutually awesome for a rockbox port to this thing.
17.28.41 #       <speachy> hmm.
17.29.18 #       <speachy> the "Wheel" is purely a capacative thing, right? 
17.29.43 #       <buZz> i assume its a single synaptic touchpad just like all those ipods
17.29.53 #       <buZz> or creative zens
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