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Subject: RE: apology

RE: apology

From: Dj Paddy <>
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:46:10 +0100

Paul Louden
> I've often thought the solution was for someone to set up another
> mailing list, on Yahoo or Google Groups for example, where their was
> no list etiquette and posters could just prattle on about whatever
> they wanted to. That might take away from this list, but it might also
> save it too.

Paul said, I've offered this suggestion a few times. In fact, I've thought
of the "coming into someone's house and taking off shoes" analogy before
too, and considered using it (maybe I have? I can't rightly remember).

One complaint I've heard with the idea of setting up a new list is that it
wouldn't have as many of the developers and core "team" on it. I'm sad to
say this list has lost a significant number of them too because of the
community's response to their desires for what they want out of the list
that actually belongs to them. We've seen a few support posts starting to
pop up (wrongly) on the -dev list just because people thought they could
more easily find a developer there. That should never have been the case. I
would've always hoped this place stayed welcoming to developers, but it
seems to have gone out of its way to have an attitude that drives them off
as well.

In my personal choice though, this is only a part of what's gone into my
decision to leave. It involves basically the totality of my involvement with
Rockbox, of which this list is a relatively small part.

It can sort of be demonstrated something that's happened to me a few times.
It has not been too uncommon for me to see someone on another website
mention Rockbox and get a response like "yeah, the software is awesome but
their support is terrible" and it's impossible for me not to think that, in
a not insignificant part, I'm responsible for that. I'd like our support to
be excellent, and I feel that it is. But I also am unable to come to terms
with why the things I do upset people the way they do, and I don't want that
bad image reflecting on Rockbox."

Hi Paul, I was actually really touched when I began reading your genuine
personal feelings on this, well I'm not sure what to call it. It is true
that I in the past have commented on your as I saw them often hard nosed
approach to list guidelines. You know yourself but I want to say for the
record I wasn't someone who mailed you privately or went out of my way to
insult you personally. To me that's uncalled for and very troll-like

A few comments and a question.

Firstly the question. This is not an attack on the "Blind" community which
I am a part off, because my peepers don't work and I've used RBs Voice UI.
Has there been a trend in who's broke the list guidelines? Not names just
has it been typical of it being "Blind" users?

Reason I ask this is, In my experience allot of these users and to a smaller
extent I include myself have been a product of their own online
environments. Mailing lists that not only allow but encourage top-posting
because it's quicker for a screen reader user to skip down through the text
that way and minimise effort for newbies.

That's just IMHO background. In otherwords allot of users from that
commmunity have been allowed to do what's easiest for them and not
necessarily as we see here always for the good. BTW. It's not something I
think should be changed for blind folks. We've just become accustomed to
doing things that way. It takes a bit longer as it does, but to be fair it
will take a fast screen reader user a bit longer to trim and edit than a
sighted user. However, this doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't' be done if
that's the way things are done on here there or anywhere. In fact I think
it would encourage people to take a bit more time on replys and not be so
slap-dash or emotional for as often is not the negative.

I've actually been really impressed by the mails you've wrote over the past
few days and can say I've seen you in a much different light to what I saw
as the guy with the stick. Who whither I or anyone likes it is basically
just reminding people, sometimes as you've said yourself it might come
across as harshly about the list guidelines. Point is as someone who has
broke them in the past myself I have to hold my hands up and say, well I
mightened have liked your approach at the time but , hey ho the guidelines
are there and despite what many of us think listservs aren't generally

I am rambling abit I realise but I do think we are seeing, (hopefully), some
positive dialog here and I hope that all users alike respect you for how
open and honest you've been here.

IMHO I think it's a bit of a geek thing, the not knowing at times how harsh
ones being or why we're being taken up that way. Part confusion of emotion
in text but also part sub-concious arrogance. Don't' see what I mean there
look at allot of other open-source forums in particular Linux. There is the
linux-speakup project for Blind users, by and for who's devs and support can
come across or at least be taken up in a simillar way to what you've

I am not sure if any of this is going to make sense or will be useful, but
I've had a barny with my GF and needed to thinka bout something else! Lol

It would be really cool to be able to re-generate a bit more conversation on
the list about RB and be able to bring back the devs.

I realise this is just my approach but how about either for yoursel fPaul
should you step back up to admin or for other admins out there approaching a
breach of guidelines for a first time offense a bit more gently? Leaving no
doubt your intent.

Like, "Hey x" "I realise yoru new here but to stop you getting yoru wrists
slapped, please remember not to top-post" "You'll see help on this at,

NB. Just a first-time thing after that no one has any excuse and if they
don't' like it then they can bugger off. In the information over-load of
the net I do think Chris who read the guideliens thoroughly although it's
polite is rare. Maybe that's very sad but I rally do believe that msot
people hop on the list, shotoa question off, wait for an answer and jump off
again. Som won't even bother trying to subscribe themselves at times
they'll ask a friend or mail an admin!

Barry Toner
Testing Windows 7 RC1

BCS Belfast Branch
YPG Representative & Disability Group

Contact me _at_


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Received on 2009-06-21

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